Pat I was just speaking of this to my boss today! Don't ask me why but I tend to feel safer here in the midwest! I am so sad to read the Irish Emigrant each Monday as it's full of bad stuff!!! really vicious stuff at that.  I know there are problems here but the law is the law and you do repect it.  I hope they get a handle on this soon and bring in some serious punishment for the likes in Ireland..

Don't get me wrong guys I love to go home and Ireland is my home but it gets my blood boiling when I read that kind of stuff.

The constant killings these days are absolutely shocking, but especially sad was that apprentice plumber fella that was caught at the wrong place the other morning and the guy that was killed at that post office down the country.

While it is true that these things are indeed the most tragic, I think Ireland in general has been going "down the toilet" in many ways.  People in general just seem more rude and ignorant than I ever remember growing up, it just seems to have gotten far worse over the last, maybe, 10 years...kinda ties in with your theory Pat about all the money floating around in the new "prosperous Ireland".

Like I'm sure a lot of you, I just find it so depressing...

I think society changed when they stopped corporal punishment in schools etc.

All of a sudden the little feckers were saying "you can't touch me. I know my rights" etc.

Yesterday, in Sydney, a 13yr old boy doused a 9yr old in petrol and set him on fire. He's using the excuse that cos he saw somebody who commited suicide then its ok!!!

What will happen to him - probably feckin nothing. Too many bloody do-gooders who say "it's not their fault.

Most of these judges need to live in normal situations to see how normal people live when they give out sentences - and thats when they bother.

Pogue Mahoney wrote: It is a strange situation allright. Just before I left Dublin in '76 there was an unarmend off-duty Garda shot while chasing a bankrobber through St.Annes.

Young and all as I am Pogue, I remember that well. His name was Garda Michael Reynolds and he happened to be passing the Bank of Ireland in Killester when he noticed the robbery. He gave chase in his own car and then on foot. When he finally caught up with the robbers in the Park they shot him dead.

Regarding the current state of affairs, I have serious issues with the performance of our current Justice Minister, particularly with regards to his priorities but won't go into them here.

Mel, just on your post about the country going down the toilet, I've been thinking the same thing for years, not just crime but Traffic, Health, Planning Corruption etc. My own favourite expression and one I've been using for years is that the Country is " going to the dogs."

Mins - very interesting and very sad - I am also an historian and a Dub true and true - my German wife said more or less the same when we visited Dublin in June - it hadn't rained for weeks and the pavements around O'Connell Street and College Green were in a really bad way with all kinds of vomit and excrement and god knows what 'plastered' to the paving stones - she had never really noticed this before (probably because it was always raining) but it really stood out this time round and was a sure sign of where many things are obviously heading. We went to Dingle for a week in August - hadn't been there in over a decade - big changes - in attitude too - no ceád míle fáiltes, uninterested to disinterested service, value for money unheard of, filthy loos, hardly any smiles - even the place we rented our cottage from didn't even bother to wish us a pleasant stay let alone ask us if we enjoyed ourselves when we had checked out!! My wife still prefers Dublin all the same, the many friendly and hospitable people, the parks, beaches, Bloomsday and old pubs ... Latent and increasing violence is a big worry, it's something you don't experience so consciously over here - despite higher levels of organised crime.  Anyway, we all live in hope .... All the best, Taylor < name="AdsSignaller">if(document.body){document.body.off_complete = "yes"; window.status = "off_end"; window.status = ""}

As a society we need to have a zero-tolerance attitude to all the misdemenours which culminate in a litany of serious crimes. Just look at the the amount of litter, especially cig ends, on the street. In theory, each one of these is a €125 fine. Wouldn't it be self-financing to employ more litter wardens who would also have the powers to arrest these drunken bums vomiting, and whatever else, in the streets. We have to reclaim our cities and towns.

As I was going home on the train one evening there was a DART stopped at malahide going in the opposite direction. There were two scangers drinking and smoking in the train with feet on the seats. I thought there was supposed to be CCTV cameras "for our protection"

I was colelcting my son from Swords one night because he couldn't get a taxi. The crowd had just spilled out of the pub onto the busy street. because there were so many scuffles broke out and some guy was getting the s**t kicked out of him on the street. I drove up to them and managed to stop it. No police in sight. This seemingly is a regular occurrence in Swords at the week-ends. However, at the pavilions the security guards called the gardai when an African woman lost control and berated her child who had been lost. 2-3 security guards got involved and there was Garda there within 5 minutes.

I find it very interesting that we all share the same sadness, anger, frustration about the state of affairs in Ireland.

Like Rolo I am very disappointed with the current Government's handling of crime, thuggery,drunkedness etc on our streets.

When I'm in Bangkok I see a lot of poverty but when I walk the streets I don't feel nervous like I do in Dublin.

The law seems to favour the criminals and as Mammy says the youngsters are untouchable.

Shame. 

Rolo wrote: Ah you're just jealous Mel.

 at Rolo!

Right - never saw this thread before, but feel the need to wade in with a bit of balance. so many opinions and so much scope to have a cyber argument - just what I need! I love a good debate.

There are some horror individuals and happenings going on all round this fair city and country. Agreed 100% and don't take anything after as an acceptance or tolerance of this.

BUT,

wouldn't focus on newpapers and their feelings on the level of crime. They know that crime and fear sell papers - a front page headline of "All's well with the world" will sell a lot less than "scum roam our streets". There's a lot of normal happy people who never hit the news.

there were some strange things happening all those years ago Pat back when everyone was obediant. There were big problems with the control exercised by the church (and others - don't want a "bash the bishop" session ). Women (and men) forced to give up their kids because they were bastards, because they were the product of sin, because they were born outside of God's law.

I don't feel any less safe on the streets of Dublin now then I did back in the 80's or before. There were (and are) parts of Dublin that you didn't go into after dark. There were (and are) parts of dublin where you keep your eyes peeled for trouble at all times of day and night. There were (and are) people who look freaky. But, I'm sure some people would find members of this site scary with long hair and leathers and denims and patches and "satanism"....)

American economic culture has certainly given me a lot that my parents didn't. I have money in my arse pocket and the ability to spend it that they didn't. Maybe as my kids grow older and start spending I'll have less, but interest rates are a lot lower than 15%, tax rate is way lower than 65% odd, inflation lower than it used be, and my mates have jobs, most are still in Ireland. Whether you look from macro or micro, we have certain things we usedn't to. I remember the face on my da when he'd see a bill coming through, when he'd be begging the bank manager for some scope. And jumped up little toerags that they were, they enjoyed the power! Not trying to exaggerate poverty levels, but there weren't always luxuries on the table - we were aware from an early age that prioritisation took place.

I am not saying life is perfect, I'm not even saying life is better. But it would be very wrong, imho, to say that life is much worse. It's just different.

Mins, I would be very reluctant to arm the guards until there are serious changes in accountability and cuture within the force (not a criticism of individuals guards as they say one of my mates is now a copper!). But, some of the stuff in Donegal is v worrying for example.

I think the answer is to continue at the macro level with the low tax and incentive culture we have created, but at the local level to empower local government and community groups to do things in the community. Places need tidying up, grass needs cutting, playgrounds need building - these can create a sense of pride in an area. but then, people will whinge about double taxation - the very same socialists who should crave this local power and the chance to DO something. (not wanting to nail my coulours to the mast or anything)

In any generation, there have been people blessed to be brought up with love, care, attention, discipline and great values. I remember my childhood with great affection despite some money worries that we had. And I'm happy in my own skin.

So despite some of the scum wandering our streets, despite the unwillingness of our politicians to do something about some serious fundamental issues in society, I'm a happy bunny.

I like this country, and think it's stil lthe best place to live (and have no intention of going anywhere else to find out if I'm wrong!!!!)

so there!!!! just going to draw breath and get back to work.....

Yes Whippersnapper, I agree with your assesment of the past when things were economically worse. We were all in the same boat and therefore did not realise we were poor. I can't think how my parents reared us all so well on one income. We seem to have problems on two good salaries. It doesn't make sense - until you realise that we are a materialistic society and have to have everything we see on TV. There is very little discipline and self denial. Now that's fine if you can afford it. If you can't you may borrow or steal. If you don't have it you may resort to envy. So, what do you do? You ensure that nobody else will enjoy the fruits of their labour. You destroy.

I think many people feel marginalised and do not want to be part of a society where they cannot keep up with their peers. Just look at the number of suicides of young people in recent years. the pressure must be horrendous if you see all your buddies doing well and you are left behind. With communication they do realise that they are missing out. In the '60s and '70s many people dropped out of society because what they saw was rotten. They did not, in general, bother others and lived their own lives as they wished. Good luck to them.

I don't see why we can't have economic success and feel safe and proud of our environment. The scanger element has to be dealt with in some way. There needs to be a new social awareness campaign promulgated by central government and rolled out to all communities.

There used be a time when the centre of Dublin was no-go area. It was commandeered by what we now term scangers and other terms. There were skinheads and boot boys and the like and they made O'Connell St. their own domain. In the inner city dwellings the residents had to suffer along with the rest of us except it was 24-hours a day. We read about about Garda cars being lured into narrow alleys and being bombarded with rocks and rubbish bins. It was a ghetto mentality like something from Harlem. If you stayed out of town then there was no problem. As a long-haired "hippie" I was several times attacked by aforesaid skinheads on my home from work during the 70's and my possessions stolen. Mugged, I suppose but it was much more personal because it was based on a difference in culture.

The inner city was moved out to the suburbs in the past few decades and the problem was shifted. Places that we once thought of as derelict are now quite respectable looking. However as these areas matured other, newer areas, such as Fingal, declined.

What is the answer to these problems? We go to college to improve ourselves when our parents never had the chance. People work hard to achieve some level of comfort.  We try hard to ensure that our own chidren can do even better. It's so frustrating when a small element in the community try to deny this. Is it boredom? Is it learnt from the media?

I think that organised sport and youth clubs/boy scouts would go a long way to teaching civic values where the parents do not have time because they are too busy trying to create a "better" material world. Such a dilemma - material v family.

Interesting that Netherlands ranked highest in the list of countries in which to raise children. I think we were 9th.

It's funny to think of the problems in society today.  My parents had 8 of us and all turned out fine, Thank God.  I think the mere fact that these days both parents have to work to make a living is definitely a factor.  Kids getting in from school hours before the parents get home from work leaves plenty of time for kids to get up to all kinds of antics.  I have a sister going through his right now with her daughter. 

I suppose we were lucky enough to have a stay at home Mom as I do think it made the difference. 

Teresa I agree with you 100% about our mams staying at home etc. There are 12 of us and thank heavens never had any trouble knocking on the door. Okay the lads got into scraps with other lads but nothing like what is happening in the world now.

We used to live in Donaghmede and had a nice house but we couldnt let the kids out to play. There was far too many scangers going around and intimidating the girls. We sent one of the girls to Speach and Drama and she was called a poshy by a 4 year old.  We moved up to Meath to try and give the girls a better start in life as drugs were taking over where we were living. I would drop the kids to the child minders on the way to work each morning and stumble across needles. The final nail in the coffin for us was when a guy from Dublin City Centre was shot and dumped at the top of our road - drug related of course.

Okay im not saying that by moving was going to be different but personally where we are it is all couples in or around our age with young kids and all of us want the very same, and its alot like when I was growing up and being allowed play on the road and leaving your hall door open and kids running into one house or another.

I blame alot of the crime etc on the parents - if a child does wrong nowdays the parents ground them or give out to them but if the parents were directly answerable alot would be different but then again the scum of the Irish Society would know how to get away with things.

Its real sad how things have changed but if we as parents raise our children the way we were raised, with respect for your elders, teachers etc then we are helping society in a small way because at least some children will have good morals and respect for others.

I was listening to 98FM yesterday and a girl got on complaining about her pal who is pregnant and on crutches and was on the train from Donabate to Dublin and not one person got up to offer her a seat. That is disgraceful and im sure alot of you ladies out there experienced the same treatment. Gone with the days when we were warned that if an older person got on the bus/train that we had to get off our seat and offer it to them. There is absolutely no respect whatsoever these days for our piers.

I make no secret about my age and it's a big joke at home how I am getting peculiar in my dotage. Anyhow here are a couple of incidents when I tried to be a gentleman.

Near the Liberties there is an old woman waiting to cross the road. I take hold of her elbow and ask her would she like some help crossing the road (as we were taught). "Get yer bleedin' hands of me" she roars. Jump back in amazement. When I explain that I was merely helping her cross the road she tells me that she has been crossing the road by herself for --- years and doesn't need any help from anyone. Okay!

In Connolly station I see these ladies struggling with some suitcases. ia sk them do they need any help. "Thanks very much" they chorus. Si I load their stuff onto the wheelie trolley and my briefcase on top. I am taking it up the stairs for them when a young Eastern European guy asks me do I need any help with my cases. I give up!

On  a more serious note. I and my boys always give up the seat if there is a lady standing. At my age she has to be over 35. On the train I take in the morning there is a guy who gets off at Malahide. He has a ritual of watching for this young pregant lady getting up at  Donabate once he sees her. It is so sweet to see.

Muller I have to tell you I almost fell on the floor laughing when I read the first one about the little women! so far away from home that just sounded so Dublin to me.

As for the bit about the guy giving his seat up each morning that is so sweet indeed.

What I hate here is when I yeild to people in my car and they can't even give you a nod to say "thanks"... just pisses me off.  I hate to say this as I am not racist in the least but its almost always black people who won't look even look at you.  Same thing when you hold a door open, no thanks or anything, hate it. 

I remember when I was pregnant with Caoimhe I was absolutely HUGE - Got on the train at Pearse Street at 5.40pm on a busy Friday and of course was standing - four lads who I can only describe as scangers are sitting down and one of the little scangers in the shiny tracksuit and hoody said to me 'mrs here sit down on my seat' I thanked him duly and he told one of his pals to push over so that 3 of them could sit on the seat together. One of the lads asks him why he gave up his seat and he said 'ah jesus shes like me ma shes pregers'. Okay first impressions were the four little runts but one of them did have manners and I was very grateful for the seat.

Another incident on the train when I was in early stages of pregnancy but showing and a lady gets on the train and she is literally ready to pop and it was me who got off my seat for her. Not one lady or gentleman got up.  And yes alot of these were suits - nowdays Id call them suits with no manners.

Have to say we where always taught to stand uo on bus and let older men woman people with children etc stand up and I would hope my Liam would do the same.

I remember about seven r eight years ago standing on a bus when this lady turns to her child and says "Stand up and let that woman sit down " I dult moved out of the way to let said "woman" sit down and then realised it was me !!!!!!!!!!

Very upset on the grounds that I had no gotten old enough to fall into that catagory

BakerBabe wrote: Another incident on the train when I was in early stages of pregnancy but showing and a lady gets on the train and she is literally ready to pop and it was me who got off my seat for her. Not one "lady or gentleman" got up.  And yes alot of these were suits - nowdays Id call them suits with no manners.

You were kind to give that title! They were lacking the lady/gentleman thing in my humble opinion!

We are so quick to judge but like you said even the lad in the shiny tracksuit had a nice streak.  There is hope!

Pat I agree with you regarding Garda presence etc. However, in my nick of the woods we only have part time station - I know alot of the local boys in blue and they have said that they have been requesting a full time garda station for quite some time but to no avail.

Regarding the upper class and drugs you are 100% correct. I personally know of a Solicitor in Dublin who was struck off the list for embezlement to the tune of 4mil - seemingly he had a habit - drugs. Its disgraceful but it is happening. I do reiterate my point in that we as parents/aunts/uncles etc need to set about an example for our children and try instill in them respect etc for others as our parents did for us.

I got a slap if I needed one!  I don't slap my boys but they know the rules and all I have to say to them is "I'm telling Daddy" and Bob is your uncle.  Martin is so placid with them so that reaction is always funny to me but hey it works. 

Bluebell - I think in a couple of years we will be starting a thread with a DEAR PAT ADVICE COLUMN !

Pat, I really love the idea that your sons are your friends, its great in this day and age.

I do hope that myself and my girls as they grow up become friends and they can talk to me about whatever.

I agree with you regarding the drink and let them have their drink in your company as then they grow to respect you and others.

Fair play to you Pat.

Biker Pat wrote: eejit91 wrote: I got a slap if I needed one!  I don't slap my boys but they know the rules and all I have to say to them is "I'm telling Daddy" and Bob is your uncle.  Martin is so placid with them so that reaction is always funny to me but hey it works.  Communication is the key. I remember when my 2 lads wanted to have their first few cans with their mates. I told them to bring their mates around to the house and have a few cans in the house. I opened up the Beatles and some other oldies, at their request, and they all sang along and then they played their own stuff. And afterwards they put away all their cans in a black bag and said thank you Mr Mc Morrow, we really enjoyed that and thank you for sharing your music. And that group of lads and girls, mine 2 guys included, never got into trouble and are still mates to this day. We all gotta remember they will try stuff, we did. Bring them on board in a responsible way that doesn't make them feel ashamed or shy. I always told my 2 boys, enjoy yourself, feel free to do so in the house, but when you go outside just respect others.

Hi Pat - just wonder what the other kids parents thought of this - did you ever have any hassle with them or did their kids not tell them? (i'm assuming they were under 18)  I agree its a safe way for kids to start to drink - they're in a safe environment and there's an adult there to help if they overdo it.  I think some parents mightn't agree though and it could lead to lots of grief for the forward thinking parent.

I hope that TLF thinks of me and TBF as his friends when he's growing up and when he's an adult - afterall a friendship is a relationship between equals with mutual respect and lots of fun to be had!!

xgrovehead wrote: Biker Pat wrote: eejit91 wrote: I got a slap if I needed one!  I don't slap my boys but they know the rules and all I have to say to them is "I'm telling Daddy" and Bob is your uncle.  Martin is so placid with them so that reaction is always funny to me but hey it works.  Communication is the key. I remember when my 2 lads wanted to have their first few cans with their mates. I told them to bring their mates around to the house and have a few cans in the house. I opened up the Beatles and some other oldies, at their request, and they all sang along and then they played their own stuff. And afterwards they put away all their cans in a black bag and said thank you Mr Mc Morrow, we really enjoyed that and thank you for sharing your music. And that group of lads and girls, mine 2 guys included, never got into trouble and are still mates to this day. We all gotta remember they will try stuff, we did. Bring them on board in a responsible way that doesn't make them feel ashamed or shy. I always told my 2 boys, enjoy yourself, feel free to do so in the house, but when you go outside just respect others. Hi Pat - just wonder what the other kids parents thought of this - did you ever have any hassle with them or did their kids not tell them? (i'm assuming they were under 18)  I agree its a safe way for kids to start to drink - they're in a safe environment and there's an adult there to help if they overdo it.  I think some parents mightn't agree though and it could lead to lots of grief for the forward thinking parent. I hope that TLF thinks of me and TBF as his friends when he's growing up and when he's an adult - afterall a friendship is a relationship between equals with mutual respect and lots of fun to be had!!

Never had any hassle with other parents. I used to ask all the guys and gals if their parents knew what they were doing and where they were and they all said it was Ok with their folks.

My sons would have told me anyway if someone was out of order.

So it was all above board and everybody was ok with the idea. It wasn't like they were getting drunk, they really were sound when it came to drinking, a little merry yes but very well behaved.

BakerBabe wrote: Bluebell - I think in a couple of years we will be starting a thread with a DEAR PAT ADVICE COLUMN ! Pat, I really love the idea that your sons are your friends, its great in this day and age. I do hope that myself and my girls as they grow up become friends and they can talk to me about whatever. I agree with you regarding the drink and let them have their drink in your company as then they grow to respect you and others. Fair play to you Pat.

Thanks BB,

I was always a open minded father and was never afraid to discuss any issue.

Anyway I'm like a teenager myself so I could and still can relate to the younger generation

Following on from Mins & Bakerbabe... a middle-aged suited man once used my very pregnant "bump" to prop his newspaper up to read it while I stood on a train!! I'm still shocked , as he got out I said to him "Your mother must be so proud..." and he answered "well I didn't get you that way"

Pat, I'd be very proud to have you as a father but as we're close enough in age I'll just say I'm very proud to know you as a friend here and I will be consulting your very rational attitude as my little one gets older.

Stevie

Don't know whats happening with women today.

I think its a generational thing. I like to have a door held open as it's the way I was brought up.

Kids today have no sense of responsibility. They're constantly being told "its not your fault you're a little beggar. Its some defective gene or McDonalds fault for eating burgers thats why you're fat!!!

Give me a break.

Just introduced daylight saving here. The amount of moaning that curtains would fade!!! and that little johnny won't go to bed while it's still bright outside. When did parents stop being parents to their kids??

What happened to saying no

or as my mother used to say

"because I said so"

Parents are doing their kids any favours today. We're breeding a generation of brats. (except for my beautiful daughter, of course. I didn't breed her like that, it's her father's fault)haha

Biker Pat wrote: Agreed Finno. It's also hard to be a gentleman sometimes. I get strange looks from some women when I hold a door open for them. A look that says "you don't have to do that anymore, we're all equal now" Jeeeeezzzz

ah Pat - you can hold a door open for me anyday.  It really bugs me when people don't hold the door for me - regardless of gender.  I always look behind me when going in or out of Arnotts or Roches or ILAC etc and hold the door if is someone is behind me..hardly anyone ever does it for me I've noticed tho.....   No rearing on people these days!

Stevie - that really is the limit - what a charmer!

xgrovehead wrote: Biker Pat wrote: Agreed Finno. It's also hard to be a gentleman sometimes. I get strange looks from some women when I hold a door open for them. A look that says "you don't have to do that anymore, we're all equal now" Jeeeeezzzz ah Pat - you can hold a door open for me anyday.  It really bugs me when people don't hold the door for me - regardless of gender.  I always look behind me when going in or out of Arnotts or Roches or ILAC etc and hold the door if is someone is behind me..hardly anyone ever does it for me I've noticed tho.....   No rearing on people these days! Stevie - that really is the limit - what a charmer!

Thanks XGH.

That issue came from a course I was sent on. Christ, I ended up being the only man there. But this debate raged among the women about whether a man holding a door open was "sexist" or "derogative" in some way to women.

I couldn't believe this sh*te. I think if women in the world are gone that far then it's a sad place.

I was raised to be mannerly and I maintain that position. And I hold a door for men as well as women.

Think if it's a matter of politeness then yes count me in. If I'm walking through a door and it's about to swing close I hold it open for man, women, child. If I'm walkiing along and someone is coming the other way, I'll allow them past. If someone comes out of a sideroad in traffic, I'll let them in in turn.

I would argue that expecting it to be kept open for you soley because of your gender is having your cake and eating it. As is battering your way in from a side road, as is walking three abreast along the footpath and expecting me to hop under a car to get out of your way.

It's not the holding of the door, it's the principle behind it....

Someone recently said to me in work "whatever else I'd say about you, you're always polite".

Is that a compliment or a subtle insult? 

I've tried to teach my daugher that yes please and no thank you are words you have to use every time you are offered something.

She says it without thinking now.

The manners were beaten into her!!!!!!

It works if you start them young. Then they can't ring childline on you.

Ah  Teresa I remember those days long gone now

mind you just managed to blag a hug out of him

hopefully hes getting past that "god no go away " stage .

Pat hope i can have as good a relationship with liam as you do with your sons

Ah Pat, that's just a geat story.

Get the same from my small fella whenever The Dubs manage a goal in the Championship. But then again he's only 10 so it's kinda to be expected. Great to see your fellas still doing it at .................well they must be at least 30

Ah its just great when ppl show their love to u without being "made" do it..lol  i love when sinead hugs me for no reason and i ask what was that for she always says cause i love u mum

When my grand father died my Dad said he regrets not telling him he loved him more often and its true most men dont like to tell others they love them well bar the hubby/wifey thing..lol

But my Dad has only 3 daughters and says its great that we all still say we love him....jeez i get off fone and b4 i go i Say bye love you lots and i mean it every time its good to be able to say it and mean it

Share the love people and mean it when you do

Sharon

Laughing at Pat - my da was (and is) a proud Kerryman. My childhood was dominated by the Dublin Kerry rivalry of the 70's.

I distinctly remember my dad dancing around the room laughing at me as Dublin got hockeyed in 1978. There was a tune "brown girl in the ring" at the time, and he sang it to me as "five goals in the rain".

I was seven - can I ring the ISPCC?

Only messing - good sl*gging can be as good as a hug. And much more manly, none of that effeminate foreign nonsense.......